New falconry laws

[rt]

So I guess you all have heard of the new changes coming such as harris hawks being available for apprentices and being able to fly captive bred rt. Also they are thinking of lowering the age to 12 and making it so you have to have to have 5 years exspirence to apprentice someone. My opinion has changed on this matter I thought at first that apprentices shouldnt have the option of harris's and captive breed redtails due to the level of skill needed to fly these birds as a (average) apprentice and I thought a apprentice should trap and train a wild bird I also felt we were headed to the way british falconers are today NO WILD TAKE. After speaking to a a few falconers I have changed my views on the subject because its not up to the apprentice at all its up to the sponcer. If the sponcer wants to take the the time and show his apprentice how to fly a harris and if the sponcer is good with harris's then I SAY MORE POWER TO HIM. As for lowering the age to 12 if the sponcer thinks the person is mature enough go for it. The thing I dont agree on is 5 years of exspirence to apprentice someone. We as falconers are a small group of people how many live near each outher? then take away people with less then 5 years of exspirence and the the distance grows more then if you take away the people who dont want to apprentice any one your options as a newcomer are limited you are either going to drive your tail off or have a high phone bill and in the end you wont gain as much exspirence as needed. Plus most people who sponcer some one are generals. This is just my thought on the matter and Iam sure some will disagree with me but I would like to hear some outhers thoughts on this matter so bring it on OOBY KIDDING I KNOW HOW YOU LIKE TO VOICE YOUR OPINION ON MATTERS LIKE THESE.

[Weasel]

The problem is the sponser. All sponsors are NOT good enough to be able to properly tell if an apprentice can care for the bird properly. In fact I know of several falconers that are paper signers and could care less what the apprentice does....I also know of several"shady" apprentices that would do things not deemed appropriate to others in this sport. This in itself leads me to beleive that a captive Harris would not be a good choise for the apprentices.... Besides, what is wrong with a red tail for the first few years? If they can't wait that long, they will have alot more patience problems in the future.

[Jay]

It is ridiculous to think that a 12 year old can handle the responsibility this sport brings. At 12 you can’t drive, in many states can’t get a hunting license, and at this age high school is coming on fast. Also can you see a 12year old out in the field for 2-4 hours at a time? Physical requirements need to be taken into consideration as well. If anything the age should be raised. When I first got into the sport at 13 I was pissed that I needed to wait till I was 15 to get a permit here in MA. After that first season I wished I had actually waited another year.

On captive bred birds, what the hell is wrong with a RT? They are easy birds, if you mess up cut the jesses and get yourself anther while your old bird goes back to being part of the breeding population. I fell this section is being pushed by breeders. As falconers we should care about the bird and not making a quick buck. If these breeders really want to sell captive bred birds to apprentices it shows that they really don’t care about the sport and well being of the birds all they care about is the cash. Just look at England. While talking with a number of falconers today at a mini meet, including the NAFA president all agreed that they would oppose the above 2 changes with every fiber in their body. This is not the official NAFA response just the feelings of some of the top Mass falconers.

Other changes discussed today that were agreed on we didn’t like, was the proposed change that would allow masters to have 5 birds. We felt it was just too many. As one person put it, if you are married, with kids and just 2 birds, someone’s getting the shaft. My sponsor chimed in with he finds 2 birds is plenty, this from someone in the sport 30years and retired.

Our club meets in a week to formulate an official MFHT response to the regs.

[rt]

First let me say there is nothing wrong with a rt if I sponcer someone in the future that is what they will fly there first year and if they do well with a rt and would like to try a harris and if I feel they can handle it then go for it. Like I said its up to the sponcer most will make their apprentice fly a rt anyway so what is it going to hurt. Look at our current options redtail or kestrel some apprentices start with a k bird and do fine and I think a harris isnt going to be that much harder if not easier then a kestrel so why not leave the options open, we are in a highly regulated sport so wouldnt the more options we have be better? Redtails are wonderful birds and every falconer knows it. Some falconers I know think a kestrel is a waste of time and not worth all the trouble but some people including myself feel that a kestrel has alot of potential as a falconry bird. I just dont see if they passed this law that its going to change anything that will make or break this sport.

[ccrobbins]

I think that actual age has very little to do with it. I have experience with a 13 year old who would excell at this sport. He has the paitence and calmness most adults lack. I often find myself wondering if he is from outerspace........

My take on the age thing goes like this. It gives him more years of an aprrenticeship. Nobody says he has to get a bird at 12. In Texas we only have to have 8 months of flying to upgrade. What is wrong with letting your child become an apprentice and just occompany you along on hunts. I know that there are folks who would give a bird to a 12 year old I just don't know any (and that is not saying much!) I think that the earlier you can start them the better off they will be. Just don't turn them loose with a wild caught bird and say o.k. your set!

[rt]

I agree.

[Ooby]

Weasel said:

The problem is the sponser. All sponsors are NOT good enough to be able to properly tell if an apprentice can care for the bird properly. In fact I know of several falconers that are paper signers and could care less what the apprentice does....I also know of several"shady" apprentices that would do things not deemed appropriate to others in this sport. This in itself leads me to beleive that a captive Harris would not be a good choise for the apprentices.... Besides, what is wrong with a red tail for the first few years? If they can't wait that long, they will have alot more patience problems in the future.

I am very much in agreement with weasel on this. The falconry community has always policed ourselves, simply because we KNOW that there are those of us who do not hold the same standards that are on parr with the community as a whole.

IMO 12 years old is WAY too young. There may be some kids capable of it, but on the whole, 12 year olds do not have the mental of physical capacity to successfully participate at this sport. I don't even KNOW why that was put in the regs.

Captive bred harris hawks is the most retarded thing ive ever heard of. It will cause people who have more money than brains to get into the sport, and we will end up with a bunch of pet keepers, simply because those birds will not be allowed to be released into the wild when the apprentice realized he made a mistake. Harris' will FLOOD the market and EVERYONE will have one for sale. Not to mention that an apprentice who learns on a harris, will not IMO be qualified to move on to anything other than the other two apprentice birds once they reach general. Simply imagine someone who flys a harris for 2 years, then trys to raise an eyas goshawk. Not a happy story.

Masters with 5 birds. Hell why not. I know quite a few people who fly a harris, an accip and a falcon, and would love to add two harris' to fly a cast, or just one more harris and another accip because thier gos kills so fast and its over with in a matter of 10 minutes in the field.


And btw RT, the word is spelled SPONSOR, not Sponcer.

[rt]

I have to disagree ooby I dont see every apprentice going out and buying a harris the (SPONSOR'S) WONT ALLOW THAT.

[frootdog]

If all the new rules pass. There will be fewer sponsors and more apprentices than there already are. Plus the available sponsors will basically be master falconers (5 years general = master eligible) and they will now be able to fly 5 birds. I know sponsors now with 3 birds and one apprentice that can't keep up with thier apprentice. What is going to kee an apprentice that live miles and miles away from his sponsor from getting a CBHH? Maybe there needs to be a form for the sponsor to sign off saying they think thier apprentice should be able to fly a HH, WC or CB. Again that is IF all the new regs pass.

[Ooby]

I don't see every apprentice doing it either. But a lot will. It will be the new thing, and it will be easier.

It should not be allowed. Nothing good is ever easy, and apprenticeship is no different. Its designed to be a learning period, not a fun period. It should be fun too, but it shouldn't be DESIGNED that way. Its a testing phase, and those that fail should not even have a CHANCE, to have a bird they cannot release into the wild.

[Riker]

when will we know if the new regs pass?? like will they be in effect before the next trapping season?

[frootdog]

...and of course the easy answer is transfer the bird if it does not work out, but who is going to want to fly some apprentices f'd up HH. It's bad enough dealing with the problems in our own birds, much less tring to fix someone elses mistakes.

[frootdog]

Riker said:

when will we know if the new regs pass?? like will they be in effect before the next trapping season?

More than likely not the way the gov moves. There is the comment period that we are in now, then they will finallize the regs and the states have 5 years to implement them. Most states will probably implement them ASAP, but I would not think anything would go down before early next year at the soonest. But I do not know for sure.

[ccrobbins]

I do not understand the captive bred thing either. To ME....trapping is huge part of this. I am looking forward to that as much or more than anything.... ;D

[Yarak]

We alll need to keep in mind that these are PROPOSED changes. They have been recommended by other falconers. I almost always like the easing of regulations, this time I less than pleased with some of the PROPOSED changes. No I do not like the age of 12. I also do not like that Harris may be made available to apprentices. I definately dislike the FIVE birds for a master. As I will comment pubilcally while it is still being reviewed. I encourage every US falconer to do the same
either in support of or against. Make some noise people or the will run over us!
Yarak